The uniqueness of Christ's suffering

I think your pastor should focus more on his soup than preaching.He might win more souls.

Seriously ,to die via "crucifixion is awful.Even as I understand it most Romans citizens were not subjected to it.

Today the majority don't die that way.

Jesus certainly bore ours sins at at his death.

You need to accept him.John chapter 3 especially verse16.

Suggest to start with the Gospel of John.KJV

It was stated that :" Since then in several visits to the soup kitchen, the pastor has avoided making eye contact with me". Is that 'love and Grace. Would Jesus avoid eye contact? - Is this man a true pastor .A shepherd of the sheep.All 100.,not just 99. Here to help - not to hinder. Also I do respect what happens in the Middle East and I do understand what you are saying with deaths there.

I think your pastor should focus more on his soup than preaching. He might win more souls.

Seriously, to die via "crucifixion is awful. Even as I understand it most Romans citizens were not subjected to it.

Today the majority don't die that way.

Jesus certainly bore ours sins at at his death.

You need to accept him.John chapter 3 especially verse 16.

Suggest starting with the Gospel of John (KJV).

I had a similar conversation with a woman I used to carpool with, fortunately for me, it was immediately after hearing the answer to the question on Relevant Radio, unfortunately for you, it was so long ago that I can barely remember the argument.

St. Paul, for one, seems to agree with you, that something is lacking in "Christ's afflictions".

"In my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church"

Col. 1, 24. NAB

Which would seem to say that St. Paul, for one, thought he could further the work of redemption by his own sufferings

• being in prisons;
• having thorns in his side;
• being captured by pirates;
• having his head chopped off

you know, St. Paul stuff. And all that is good, but it doesn't create a new Redemption

Does this mean that the Redemption achieved by Christ is not complete? No. It only means that the Redemption, accomplished through satisfactory love, remains always open to all love expressed in human suffering. In this dimension—the dimension of love—the Redemption which has already been completely accomplished is, in a certain sense, constantly being accomplished

SALVIFICI DOLORIS - St. John Paul II

And all of our sufferings add to this dimension, in a way, outside of time, as a sort of prayer in action and deed.

So that's the meaning of suffering.

The unique part about Christ's suffering on the cross was that He is God, and God doesn't do that sort of thing. So (this is what I do remember of the Relevant Radio conversation and the ensuing conversation with my old carpool buddy). Murdering God was the greatest possible evil thing humanity could do and forgiving it, using it as a sacrifice and turning it around is the greatest possible good thing God could do for us and it had to be that way.

So, if you want a heresy to paint yourself with, try Arianism. If you have the notion that Jesus was a good teacher who got Himself killed because He ticked too many people off. Then He wasn't God, or the part of Him that got killed wasn't God, either way, you're rehashing something that's been played out in the very beginning of Christendom and the only rational way around it is to consider the relationship between the One being killed and the ones doing the killing before and after the event.

Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, no hope for humanity - except in a future messiah and redeemer. After Christ's death and resurrection, humanity's place in Heaven is thrown open, the devil falls from the sky like lightning.

God created humans because he gets pleasure from observing righteousness. Because of the fall, humanity cannot observe righteousness. In order to solve the problem, God creates a new humanity, a new man.

The way to be righteous is to leave the old man and be in the new.

The topic is wide in it's scope, with different aspects that can be unpacked into entire books. It is best to only address the aspects that arise in the question, and even then to only briefly outline the situation.

The problem involved is the fallen-ness of humanity. God's solution is to offer a sin offering to offset the fallen-ness. Sin and righteousness can be seen as entries in an account book. The interesting feature, in God's plan, is that different actors influence the entries in different ways. Adam's act has an effect on the entire human race. However, the offering of bulls and goats have no effect on countering the effect of the acts of Adam and his descendants. Only the offering of Christ can offset the debit incurred by them until the Cross. And only the offering of those in Christ can offset the debit incurred after the Cross.

2 Corinthians 5:21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin (offering) on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Read N T Wright's explanations about "sin offering" being the right translation choice here:

http://ntwrightpage.com/2016/05/07/on-becoming-the-righteousness-of-god/

Quote

Three final reflections. First, this way of reading the second half of the crucial verse may perhaps provide an additional reason for taking the second occurrence of in the verse as a reference not just to “sin” in general but to the “sin-offering.”13 I have argued elsewhere for this meaning for in Rom 8:3, and I think it is likely, granted the more context-specific reading of the verse which I am proposing, that Paul would intend it here too. 14 This, if correct, would not water down the striking impression of the first half of the verse, as is sometimes suggested, but would rather give it more specific direction. The verse is not an abstract, detached statement of atonement theology (Paul nowhere offers us such a thing); rather, it focuses very specifically on his own strange apostolic ministry. Insofar as this ministry is a thing of shame and dishonor, it is so despite Paul’s intention, and the sin-offering is the right means of dealing with such a problem. Insofar as it is the means of the divine covenant faithfulness being held out to the world, it is because, in Christ, Paul has “become” the (“righteousness of God”). This is only a suggestion, which could perhaps be taken up in subsequent discussion.

Read Vern Poythress’s explanations about the different effects of the offering of our High Priest here:

https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/the-shadow-of-christ-in-the-law-of-moses/

Quote

We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

The final atonement must be simultaneously like a sheep who dies and like the high priest who presents the sacrifice. This final high priest is described in Isa. 53 as the servant of the Lord. He presents his own body as a guilt offering (Isa. 53:10) and dies (Isa. 53:9). Like a sin offering where the body of the animal is carried outside the camp, he dies outside the camp (Heb. 13:11-14). Then he will “see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand” (Isa. 53:10). He will live again. As the high priest now living he goes through the rest of the steps in the sacrificial system. That is, he presents the blood of the sacrifice, his own blood (Heb. 9:12). The blood has already been poured out on the earth as he died, cleansing the ground itself. If we follow the images of Lev. 16 exactly, we would say that the blood is put first on the atonement cover, not this time in the earthly tabernacle but in the real one in heaven, the throne of God. Heaven itself is propitiated. Then blood is used to cleanse the whole “Tent of Meeting” (Lev. 16:16), standing for the whole of the visible heavens. Then the bronze altar is cleansed, standing for the earth (Lev. 16:18). Each cleansing is complete, signified by sevenfold sprinkling (16:14, 19). The whole universe is cleansed by the blood of his sacrifice (Rom. 8:20-21; Col. 1:20), but in stages: first heaven, then earth. Satan has been thrown out of heaven (Rev. 12:9-12). The full cleansing of earth yet awaits the time of Christ’s coming out of the most holy place in heaven and appearing bodily on earth.

It is abundantly clear from the scriptures that the physical sufferings of Jesus Christ during crucifixion are not those that are vicarious :

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. [I Peter 2:24, KJV.]

What he bore within his body was for sins. What he suffered, physically, to the exterior of his human frame, was a circumstancial matter associated with that internal suffering but was not the essence of what passed between God and the Person of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The doctrine of Christ - expounded principally by Peter, Paul and John - clearly teaches that what passed, spiritually, between the Father and the Son (in one Holy Spirit) is that which justifies those who receive that gospel and who believe it.

Not to believe that gospel is to be (simply) an 'unbeliever'.

As to the unique sufferings of Christ, Jeremiah speaks, prophetically, of the coming Messiah and of the severity of his sufferings :

Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by? behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger. [Lamentations 1:12, KJV.]

And so also does Zechariah speak of the nature of his sufferings :

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. [Zechariah 13:7, KJV.]

The idea isn't that there was crucifixion or death or any number of people who have died and will die horrible deaths, but rather that it was Jesus the Messiah who had died. Who was Jesus the Messiah is the question.

Once the OP knows the answer to that question, then the OP question is answered. Here's a hint.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

So, with that in mind:

Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth. Psalm 88:8

As Isaiah had said,

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastis*m*nt of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa 53:5

And as Peter grasped,

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 1 Pe 2:24

Who was Jesus the Messiah?

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev 21:6

The suffering caused by the physical cross and by the soldiers was only a tiny portion of Christ's suffering. His suffering and death was vicarious, meaning, he suffered in our place, Christ died for our sins. God poured out upon His Son the wrath that was due to us. The wrath of God against sin is very great. Sinners will spend an eternity in Hell for the sins of just one life. Even one sin is enough to condemn to hell forever. How much then must be the punishment of Christ who bore the torment for all the sins of his people?

The LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all, (Isaiah 53:6).

He was made a curse for us, (Galatians 3:13).

The punishment, then, was incomparably the worst punishment anyone has ever endured, and if he had not been God as well as a man He would not have been able to endure it.

When He was suffering on the cross there was darkness for the space of three hours. The intimation is that even if we had been there as a bystander we would not have been able to see the depth of his suffering. It would have been pointless to stand and watch him suffer because you would not have been able to see it: so God gave a curtain of darkness to demonstrate the pointlessness of trying to see all his suffering.

His sufferings of mind are described in Psalm 69, which is clearly associated with the cross in verse 21, "in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink".