Incompatibilities between Vatican II and the Council of Florence on salvation outside the Church?

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

Let's examine the issue of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus by looking at the very first of at least seven dogmatic definitions:

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

How does a Catholic understand and receive this dogmatic teaching of the Magisterium? Pope Pius IX makes it infallibly clear:

Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra: “Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.”

So, how is one to "understand" the dogma? Exactly as it is written! There are no exceptions made and there can be no exceptions added in the future, because dogmas are believed as once declared!

In all of the Church's statements on EENS all exceptions are clearly excluded (notice the bolded parts):

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311‐1312, ex cathedra: “Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non‐exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, (...) and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra: “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non‐exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

As we see outside the Church there is "nobody", "no one", "none", "no one at all" who can be saved, but to achieve salvation "every human creature", "all", "each one" must be inside the Church and subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Subjection to the Roman Pontiff

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

How is one subject to the Roman Pontiff? How are infants subject to the Roman Pontiff?

By examining this question we see even more clearly the necessity of the Catholic faith, received through baptism, for salvation. For infants (and adults) become subject to the Church through baptism!

Pope Leo XIII, Nobilissima (# 3), Feb. 8, 1884: “The Church, guardian of the integrity of the Faith – which, in virtue of its authority, deputed from God its Founder, has to call all nations to the knowledge of Christian lore, and which is consequently bound to watch keenly over the teaching and upbringing of the children placed under its authority by baptism…”

Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, On the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Sess. 14, Chap. 2, ex cathedra: “… since the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not previously entered it by the gate of baptism. For what have I to do with those who are without (1 Cor. 5:12), says the Apostle. It is otherwise with those of the household of the faith, whom Christ the Lord by the laver of baptism has once made ‘members of his own body’ (1 Cor. 12:13).”5

Clearly the unbaptized can in no way be subject or under the judgment (jurisdiction) of the Church and therefore are excluded from salvation.

What this means for Vatican II

Pope Paul VI, Vatican II, Decree on Ecumenism: It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

Pope Paul VI, Vatican II, , Lumen Gentium: But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

You state: "From what I understand about Catholic teaching, it is not possible for infallible teachings, either from a pope or an ecumenical council, to contradict each other. However, there seems to be a clear incompatibility between medieval Catholic doctrine and that of Vatican II around the question of salvation outside the church."

There indeed cannot be a contradiction in the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church), since it is free from all error.

Pope Pius XI, Divini Illius Magistri (#16), Dec. 31, 1929: “To this magisterium Christ the Lord imparted immunity from error...”

However, Vatican II is not merely incompatible, but blatantly heretical and opposed to the constant and universal teaching of the Church on many points. Therefore it cannot be part of the Magisterium.

A Council is ecumenical and infallible (per Vatican I) if it is

1. promulgated by a valid Pope
2. with his apostolic authority
3. to the universal Church
4. on a point of faith and morals,

and since Vatican II meets conditions 2 through 4, but is heretical, it necessarily follows that Paul VI was not a true Pope of the Catholic Church because a contradiction in the Magisterium would follow if he were.

That Paul VI never attained to the Pontificate is easily proven.

To answer Mike Borden's bounty question directly - Vatican II cannot be reconciled with Unam Sanctam, they are in clear opposition.

A non-Catholic may try to point to the great apostasy of the majority of the Church as proof that the gates of Hell have prevailed against Her. However, this situation only further proves that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ because this was predicted in the Apocalypse to happen to the true Church.

Short refutation of Ken Graham's Answer

The widespread apostasy in the sect pretending to be the Catholic Church is manifest in the answer by Ken Graham which is heretical on many points and outright wrong on others. I will refute just a few lest this answer become too long.

He asserts that souls can be converted after death which is condemned in the very quote which this question is based on:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives;

The theory that Benedictus Deus leaves room for conversion after death is laughable and heretical. It is recognized by all that the dogmatic bull Benedictus Deus condemned the error of the previous Pope John XXII that the blessed departed do not see the Beatific Vision immediately. In doing so it uses the exact same word, mox, which Ken Graham has attempted to abuse in another place, to mean immediately:

[iii.] and the souls of children reborn in that same baptism of Christ and of those to be baptized when they shall have been baptized, dying before the use of their free will, immediately [mox] after their death and the aforesaid purgation of those who stood in need of a purgation of this kind, even before the resumption of their bodies and the General Judgment, following the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into Heaven, have been, are, and will be in Heaven, in the Kingdom of Heaven and in the Celestial Paradise with Christ…”

Notice also that it is explicitly defined that all who are in Heaven (or will go to Heaven) are (or will be) baptized. It is even clearer from the full definition.

Ken Graham: "The narrow interpretation of the Latin phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus is not the true traditional manner of interpretation. Nor is the more wider framed interpretation something that just seemed to have popped up as a result of the Second Vatican Council."

There are no narrow and loose interpretations, there is only "what the Church has once declared" (Vatican I).

Indeed, his whole answer is based on interpreting the Magisterium, which denies that the Church's judgment is final and infallible. By interpreting the Magisterium one invariably believes that Christ did not confer the teaching authority on Peter but on various saints or theologians, which is condemned.

Pope Pius XII, Humani generis (# 21), Aug. 12, 1950: “This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.’”

His assertions that St. Therese and Padre Pio believed that many are saved, even outside the Church, are not worthy of refutation. However, this is a good opportunity for Padre Pio to remind us of the feweness of the saved:

Padre Pio said: “Don’t you know that we must be alert on the road to salvation? Only the fervent succeed in reaching it, never the tepid or those who sleep!”

In a letter on May 27, 1914, Padre Pio said: “Dear God! If all were aware of your severity as well as of your tenderness, what creature would be so foolish as to dare to offend you?”

One of the brothers asked Padre Pio, “Why do you cry?” Padre Pio responded: “Why should I not cry seeing humanity damning itself at all cost.”

Speaking of the Divine Blood of Jesus: “Only a few will profit by It, the greater number run the way of perdition.”

It is a clear error on Mr. Graham's part that only sedevacantists (Catholics who recognize that there is currently no Pope) are, what he calls, Feeneyites (a demeaning term used to refer to those who believe in the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus).

Actually the organization founded by Fr. Feeney, the St. Benedict Center is part of the Vatican II "Catholic" Church to which Ken Graham belongs, which also received Fr. Feeney into "full communion" without any abjuration of error, while most sedevacantists reject Fr. Feeney's error on justification.

Conclusion

Pope Clement XIV, Cum Summi (#14), Dec. 12, 1769: “… We lament that the destruction of souls is propagated more widely each day. Accordingly you must work all the harder and exercise diligence and authority to repel this audacity… Be confident that you will accomplish this by simplicity of sound doctrine and by the word of God…”

The teaching of the Church is simple - outside the Church no one at all is saved.

Whoever adds to or recedes from the dogmatic definition in doing so rejects it.

Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (#7), Aug. 15, 1832: “… nothing of the things appointed ought to be diminished; nothing changed; nothing added; but they must be preserved both as regards expression and meaning.”

Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the apostle that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate” (Athanasian Creed).

When someone asks you: "Can a non-Catholic be saved?" the Lord has told you how to answer:

“But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil” (Mt. 5:37).

For more on this topic see the free book Outside the Church There Is Absolutely No Salvation by Bro. Peter Dimond which is the most comprehensive and definitive book on the topic ever made and will answer any questions or objections you might have.

Incompatibilities between Vatican II and the Council of Florence on salvation outside the Church?

This is one of the most misunderstood teachings of the Catholic Church.

Before going on I would like to point that membership into the Catholic Church takes place with the sacrament of baptism.

Yet the Early Church recognized a few martyrs who had not yet received the cleaning waters of baptism. The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity is just one example:

Along with Felicitas and Perpetua, these included two free men, Saturninus and Secundulus, and an enslaved man named Revocatus; all were catechumens or Christians being instructed in the faith but not yet baptized. To this group of five was added a further man named Saturus, who voluntarily went before the magistrate and proclaimed himself a Christian.

On 7 March, 202, the five confessors were led into the amphitheater. At the demand of the pagan mob they were first scourged; then a boar, a bear, and a leopard, were set at the men, and a wild cow at the women. Wounded by the wild animals, they gave each other the kiss of peace and were then put to the sword.

Thus baptism in blood is truly recognized by the Church!

The Fathers of the Church often taught that "outside the Church there is no salvation" (e.g., St. Augustine, Sermon 96, 7, 9). This is stated quite positively, as this means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church, which is His Body. No problem. Let’s see.

The narrow interpretation of the Latin phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus is not the true traditional manner of interpretation. Nor is the more wider framed interpretation something that just seemed to have popped up as a result of the Second Vatican Council.

The whole nuance of this question is somewhat complicated to say the least.

The OP cites two papal encyclicals that seem to be at odds with Vatican II understanding of how extra ecclesiam nulla salus is actually interpreted.

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. - Unam Sanctam (One God, One Faith, One Spiritual Authority), Pope Boniface VIII - 1302.

It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives. - Council of Basel-Ferrara-Florence, 1431-49 A.D.

Only parts of the Council of Basel-Ferrara-Florence are considered ecumenical. Pope Eugene IV did not ratify some parts. This is something historians do not take note of.

More importantly, we can see from the vehemence of Patristic attacks on heretics, e.g., St. Cyprian Ad Demetrianum, that the Fathers have in mind those who are in bad faith, who culpably reject the Church. They do not seem to think of those who inculpably fail to find the Church. So from this point on, it becomes largely a question not of doctrine but of objective fact: how many are culpable? Further, this statement was made in 1442, before the 1492 discovery that there was a whole other world. The writers thought that the Gospel had actually reached every creature. It had not, and they supposed bad faith on the part of those who rejected it.

The Council of Florence is considered only ecumenical up to the decrees that Pope Eugene IV signed of on. Feeneyists love to quote this Council. Fr. Feeney S.J. himself was excommunicated from the Church and died outside the Church!

The Council of Basle met first in that town, Eugene IV being pope, and Sigismund Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. Its object was the religious pacification of Bohemia. Quarrels with the pope having arisen, the council was transferred first to Ferrara (1438), then to Florence (1439), where a short-lived union with the Greek Church was effected, the Greeks accepting the council's definition of controverted points. The Council of Basle is only ecumenical till the end of the twenty-fifth session, and of its decrees Eugene IV approved only such as dealt with the extirpation of heresy, the peace of Christendom, and the reform of the Church, and which at the same time did not derogate from the rights of the Holy See. - General Councils

The origins of the phrase, Salus extra ecclesiam non est ("there is no salvation outside the Church"), comes from Letter LXXII of Cyprian of Carthage (died 258).

In Ad Jubajanum de haereticis, Cyprian tells Jubaianus of his conviction that baptism conferred by heretics is not valid. Firmilian agreed with Cyprian, reasoning that those who are outside the Church and do not have the Holy Spirit cannot admit others to the Church or give what they do not have.

The concept was equally referred to by Origen in his Homilies on Joshua, but neither he nor Cyprian were addressing non-Christians, but those already baptized and in danger of leaving the faith, as that would involve apostasy.

Commenting on St. Cyril's phrase, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, placed the famous words in their important historical context:

We must remember that this expression was formulated by St. Cyprian in the third century in a quite concrete situation. There were those who thought they were better Christians who were unhappy with the Church of bishops and separated themselves from her. In answer to that, Cyprian says: separation from the Church community separates one from salvation. But he did not mean to lay down a theory on the eternal fate of all baptized and non-baptized persons (quoted in "Ratzinger Speaks," The Catholic World Report, January 1994, p. 23). - Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (Outside the Church there is no salvation)

There are still some sedevacantists called Feeneyists that have a very strict interpretation and belief that only baptized Catholics can be saved. They reject the concept of baptism by desire and baptism of blood, and say that only a properly performed rite with the use of water and the requisite words is sufficient. But Holy Mother Church has a far more merciful interpretation of what the phrase Salus extra ecclesiam non est truly means.

There exist among the documents of the Magisterium a handful of rather restrictive texts concerning church membership, similar in tone to some of the statements of the Early Fathers already mentioned. One example is a declaration by the Fourth Lateran Council, held in 1215, which taught "there is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved." Furthermore, Pope Boniface VIII, in his bull of 1302 entitled Unam Sanctam, asserted in the strongest possible terms that "it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

By far the most favorite conciliar quote of the Feeneyites, however, comes from the Council of Florence. Pope Eugene IV issued the Bull Cantate Domino in 1441, which states the following:

(N)o one remaining outside the Catholic Church, not just pagans, but also Jews or heretics or schismatics, can become partakers of eternal life; but they will go to the "everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life they are joined to the Church.... And no one can be saved, no matter how much alms he has given, even if he sheds his blood for the name of Christ, unless he remains in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church (Denziger 715).

In its letter to Archbishop Cushing on the Boston heresy case (the protocol to which Pope Pius XII had so carefully attended), the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office noted that "the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach. . . that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church." The protocol goes on to say, however, that

(T)his dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Saviour gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church (Suprema haec sacra, in The American Ecclesiastical Review, 1952, vol. 127, pp. 308-15).

In other words, the magisterial texts used by Fr. Feeney and his followers can only be interpreted in context and in the light of other, equally authoritative Magisterial teachings not only in order to avoid confusion or charges that the Church has changed her teaching, but because it is only in harmony with the Magisterium of today that magisterial texts of yesterday may be rightly understood.

The protocol mentions, for example, Pope Pius IX's 1863 encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore. In this document, while cautioning against the error of religious indifferentism, the pontiff simultaneously affirmed the inexhaustible mercy of God, who really does desire that all men be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4):

We all know that those who are afflicted with invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law that have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can attain eternal life by the power of divine light and grace. For God. . . will not permit, in accordance with his infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment. However, also well-known is the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church, and that those who obstinately oppose the authority and definitions of that Church, and who stubbornly remain separated from the unity of the Church and from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, (to whom the Savior has entrusted the care of his vineyard), cannot obtain salvation.

This same teaching was echoed by Pius IX's successor, Pope Pius XII, in his 1943 encyclical Mystici Corporis, to which the 1949 protocol also makes reference. The protocol summarizes the pope's teaching by saying that while membership in the Church is indeed an absolute requirement for salvation, such membership does not necessarily have to be visible to the human eye, and can be characterized by even "desire and longing," whether explicit (in the case of catechumens) or implicit (in the case of the invincibly ignorant). At the same time, however, the pope affirms that those souls in the latter case "cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church." The protocol concludes:

With these wise words [Pius XIII reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally in every religion.

Just two decades later, the Second Vatican Council further clarified the position of the Magisterium:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation (Lumen Gentium, #16).

We can see that the larger interpretation is not just something dreamed up by Vatican II. St. Teresa of the Child Jesus, Patron Saint of the Missions and a Doctor of the Church, clearly believed that those who through no fault of their own and have never heard of the Gospel could be saved! See: Story of a Soul.

Some time ago I came across the following tidbit about St. Padre Pio in which he affirmed his own belief that repentance very shortly after death was possible. Others have thought so also!

"I believe that not a great number of souls go to hell. God loves us so much. He formed us at his image. God loves us beyond understanding. And it is my belief that when we have passed from the consciousness of the world, when we appear to be dead, God, before He judges us, will give us a chance to see and understand what sin really is. And if we understand it properly, how could we fail to repent?" - Close encounters of a special kind with Padre Pio: The Souls in Purgatory, The Guardian Angel, the devil.

Although most Catholics maintain that the soul is judged immediately after death, Pope Benedict XII’s Benedictus Deus (1336) uses the mox in reference to the soul’s judgement after death. This leaves the possibility that the soul may be infused with the proper knowledge under the influence of the Holy Spirit in order to enlighten the soul to ask for Divine Mercy due to their invincible ignorance, and thus obtain eternal life. This is not possible for the fallen angels since they did not have invincible ignorance when they were condemned to hell.

Diffinimus insuper, quod secundum communem Dei ordinationem animae decedentium in actuali mortali peccato mox post mortem suam ad Inferna descendunt, ubi poenis infernalibus cruciantur et quod nichilominus in die iudicii omnes nomine ante tribunal Christi cum suius corporibus comparebunt (II Cor 6,10).

Some English translations translate mox meaning soon with the word immediately. The Latin word mox clearly means soon, and Pope Benedict XII employed the proper term. He could have employed the word statim meaning spontaneous and or immediately, but he did not. The Latin version here is to be considered the official text of the Holy See over any other translated text, English or otherwise.

Thus Vatican II and the Council of Florence on salvation outside the Church, do not seem so far apart, when we look at the patristic and historical information at hand, especially if we take into account those portions that the Council of Florence that have been accepted by the Teaching Magisterium of the Church.

In the end,the Church retains the right to interpret her own legislative texts.

The following articles may be of interest to some:

• Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (Wikipedia)

• What “No Salvation Outside the Church” Means

• Is There Salvation Outside the Church?

Addendum:

Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary known as St. Benedict’s Center has no official standing within the Catholic Church.

The Slaves are being sanctioned by the church for their stance on the Catholic teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. The Slaves hold to a strict interpretation of that teaching, while the Vatican holds a more nuanced view.

In recent years, Manchester Bishop Peter Libasci has allowed a priest in good standing from another diocese to minister to the Slaves and their congregation, celebrating Mass in the traditional Latin rite, and administering other Catholic sacraments. According to a statement released Monday by the Diocese, the Slaves have used that allowance to imply they were an approved Catholic organization.

“Catholics are not permitted, under any circumstances, to receive the sacraments of the church at the Saint Benedict Center, and its associated locations, nor should they participate in any activity provided by this group or school,” a statement released Monday by the diocese says.

• [NH-based 'only Catholics go to heaven' group sanctioned by Church; aspiring nun allegedly held against her will](NH-based 'only Catholics go to heaven' group sanctioned by Church; aspiring nun allegedly held against her will](https://www.unionleader.com/news/religion/nh-based-only-catholics-go-to-heaven-group-sanctioned-by-church-aspiring-nun-allegedly-held/article_ac1831fa-113f-5f55-a625-2649bd79cd5b.html)

There one time chaplain, Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J held rigid views regarding the doctrine Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation"). Fr. Feeney criticized Boston Archbishop Richard Cardinal Cushing for, among other things, accepting the church's definition of "baptism of desire". He was excommunicated February 13, 1953. It is clear there is a rift here between Vatican II teachings and these diverse groups on the subject of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. To state that they are pro Vatican II is not true.

Most Holy Family Monastery “is neither affiliated with the diocese [of Lincoln, Nebraska] nor the Roman Catholic Church. In 1999, the Catholic League, in its annual report on anti-Catholicism, described MHFM as "a dissident organization that challenges [...] papal authority", reporting the monastery's publication of a pamphlet entitled "101 Heresies of Anti-Pope John Paul II". The group has also been condemned by the Catholic diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska.” Thus, to use them as a source has no bearing on Catholic theology. They have their particular opinions, but they can not claim to represent Catholic teachings. Ergo, Bro. Peter Dimond has no authority to represent Catholic interpretation on this particular subject.